Cops have about as much understanding of what we do as the man in the moon. They come off as a rather self centered bunch who are quite used to getting their way. I guess it comes with the police powers, the badge, the gun....they assume that they are always the ones "in charge". We, at EMS, are quite often at the short end of the stick when it comes to Law Enforcement. Not that they care, but I wish they'd at least be "indoctrinated" on the workload we juggle and how much bullshit they could keep off our plate.
We are not a damned "rolling free clinic". We don't issue clean bills of health. We don't have an Xray machine, CT, or laboratory on board. We aren't Psychiatrists. We aren't ass wipers. We're not gonna transport that drunk for you just because he shit himself and you don't want to put him in your car. Every day....and I mean EVERY DAY we get multiple requests from the Sheriff's Department, Police Department, and Highway Patrol requesting that we respond to a patient with no legitimate medical complaint but they just want us to "CHECK THEM OUT"....or "My officer says she's a little 'shaken up'". Shaken up?? Check them out?? What the hell do they want us to do, give them a 72 point maintenance inspection? These guys are medics not mechanics! All this crap could be solved with one simple question..."Do you want an ambulance to take you to the hospital?....You don't know right now?....OK, lemme know when you do."
We have to prioritize calls based on the medical need and severity of the patient's condition. We have to do this so that we can legally account for the need to divert an ambulance to a higher priority call. It sounds simple but you gotta have a system in place that legitimizes the need to divert from the stumped toe to the chest pain. Law Enforcement very rarely gives us enough information to even code the call much less give it the proper determinant for prioritization. I don't know if it's laziness on the officer's part or if it's laziness on the dispatcher's part but they don't seem to give a rat's ass that we have a job to do too. The following exchange is extremely common:
Me: "Rescue...go ahead."
Sheriff's Department: "Yeah, We need you guys to go to Pace and Palafox."
Me: "What's going on there?"
Sheriff's Department: "I got an officer out with a black male subject there who needs an ambulance."
Me: "What's wrong with him?"
Sheriff's Department: "I don't know, he just said to send EMS."
Me: "Can you ask him 'why'"?
Sheriff's Department: "(sigh)...hang on!...Car 223.....EMS wants to know why they're needed.......Copy....He says the patient's bleeding."
Me: "Bleeding from where, what happened?"
Sheriff's Department: "(bigger sigh)....Car 223....Do you have any further information for EMS?.....10-4....He doesn't have any further information."
Me: "That's not what I asked....I need to know if he's conscious?...if he's breathing?....if he's alert?...how was he injured?...we're running several calls right now and I may need to divert an ambulance.
Sheriff's Department: "(even bigger sigh...mumbles under breath) Lemme call you back."
Me: "*$&% #^&#!~"
This is an Unknown Problem...Bravo response (priority 3) because of some lazy freakin' police work! As often as we work with these other agencies, you'd think we'd have a decent working relationship with them by now. That ain't the case. Last week I had an ambulance crew who's patient decided that he wanted to fight. They had their hands full and called on the radio for the Sheriff's Office, 10-18 (local vernacular for emergency response). I made that request for them. A few minutes later, one of my call takers says "I got the Sheriff's Department on the line wanting to know why we need them to respond." I picked up the phone and said (for the second time) "My crew has a patient who's fighting them, they need some help." The dispatcher tells me that her Sergeant's asking for more information. WTF!? "I don't have any more information for you....my crew's in a fight with a patient and they need help....what the hell else do you need to know??" This is all very typical of the relationship we have with our friendly local constabulary.
It's easy, and perhaps unfair, for me to form the opinion that alot of cops are just damned lazy. The extra work load that Law Enforcement puts on us out of ignorance or laziness can be a tremendous burden...not only because it costs the county taxpayers alot of damned money to send an ambulance somewhere and on BS calls those costs are never recovered, and not only because of the work it creates for the medics who have to fill out Patient care forms and refusals and administrative personnel who have to process that paperwork, not only because of the extra work it creates in EMS dispatch (which is already an extremely busy place because it happens to be the primary answering point for 9-1-1 in our county)....but because we don't have as many ambulances as they do officers. We have to maintain a coverage for the county and very often, these cops are robbing ambulances from people who legitimately need them. I hate dealing with them. They are rarely accommodating and often rude. That's bad enough, but when it impacts the level of care we're able to provide to other patients, somebody ought to have the ability and authority to put a stop to it.
Are we the only EMS agency who has such a shitty working relationship with local law enforcement?
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17 comments:
J,I already went down that road. I started as a fire/ems dispatcher and transfered to the Sheriffs Dept with great ambition, learn the job, get to know the deputies, talk to the Sgt's, the Lt's. I'll fix the communication problems between the two agencys.As I quickly found out, that was a double edge sword. I found myself being as frustraded with Fire/EMS as they were with us.
Example
Me- Sheriffs Office
EMS- My crew's requesting you at 550 E Nine Mile Rd for an assault
Me-Is the Suspect still there?
EMS- Not sure but I dont think so, this occured at Seville Quarter, my crew's gonna hold back till You secure the scene.
Me- OK but it may be a while, we're holding 8 calls on the North End.
I hang up, (mutter to myself)Jesus Christ, why would EMS hold back when this incident took place 12 miles away at a night club and either the patient or his friend drove him home? The Patrol Sgt asked me the same question! The responding EMS Crew said the Suspect may have followed them. My reply,,,,Well there may be someone still standing on the Grassy Knoll in Dallas,,,,but I doubt it, we'll be there as soon as we can.
Call over to the Sheriffs Dept after 01:00 and ask how many Deputies are working "South". You may be suprised to find that You have more EMS trucks then they have Deputies. Still does'nt make it right, but it does work both ways. Just something to think about.
Oh, you're definitely right about that. I agree it goes both ways. We got EMS crews that'll hold back on an 85 year old woman in a nursing home who's combative. I've had them hold back on an 9 year old kid, who while throwing a temper tantrum dropped a marble cutting board on her foot and broke it. I too just shook my head. What the hell is a 9 year old with a broke foot gonna do to 340 pounds of ambulance crew??
It makes me wonder if these unified dispatch centers you here so much about are at a greater advantage. They do it all...police one day, fire the next...ems, call taking. They know when and how to prompt the road folks to cough up the needed information. I'm sure it has it's draw backs but sometimes it sounds like a damned birthday party compared to what we're doing now....ya know?
Give you two guesses who that medic was.....You don't need to guess, you know don't you?
Yes I know, lmao, it's almost a nightly event. Not sure about the unified Dispatch Center. (prolly would'nt work here, too much power struggling as it is with elected officials) but cross training at least 40 hours (not a 4 hour thing) I feel would do wonders on all aspects. Fire/EMS/Police Dispatchers Cross Train. And EMT's/Paramedic's and The Patrol Units sit with Us for 40 hours listening to the call's We take, and we ride the streets with them. The extra time and money invested in training could and would greatly improve relations, communications and overall Public Service. After all. We are on the same team, Public Safety!! Yall think about it.
I work in a unified dispatch center, and used to work the old way. The old way is lots better. Unified is a bloody nightmare. Four different agencies all wanting to do it their way. No one willing to unify but us. The more fingers in the pie the worse for dispatchers. Not only do you have to learn numerous ways of doing things, but your ass is up for grabs by EVERYONE. And of course your bosses never listen to you, you're guilty until proven innocent. Avoid unified dispatch centers at all costs. If your agency unifies...leave.
Damn, first I find out cops and firemen don't get along, now I find out cops and EMS don't get along. What gives? Is it you guys and your egos? LOL....kidding.
Actually where I work the cops and EMS get along great. Alot of times the cops will show up on the scene just to see if we need extra help with anything. Not to long ago I asked dispatch to tone out fire for a lift assist. Nobody from fire answered up. I was standing there wondering how the heck me and my partner were going to get a 450 pound patient down the stairs by ourselves when 2 county sherrifs a town cop and a trooper showed up. They were like "we were eating lunch and heard you guys needed help lifting" For the most part it is like that all the time. And honestly when the cops are so ready to help with stuff like that I dont really mind waking up at 2 am to check out one of their assult victims.
Stacey, that really is so very far removed from what we experience in my neck of the woods that I wonder if you are not from a different planet! Must be nice.
Wadical- I work for a combined center and its not all that great either. They still can't figure out how to talk to each other on incidents. "Dispatch tell PD we need traffic control on the west side." "Dispatch advise FD chief to respond to my location." etc. You're standing 20 feet away from each other! Walk over there and get off my radio! I think a little education would go a long way too. They don't understand what the other agency really does, and they dont care- but it would make working together a lot easier! We just had a fireman wipe mud off his boots with a stabbing vic's bloody t-shirt. Brilliant. Destroyed evidence, but thank goodness his boots were shiny again!
Stacey- sounds like you work for the perfect agency. Enjoy it while it lasts!
Jay,
I understand that you have a tough job and I want you to know that I appreciate what you do. I also understand that this is only your opinion. What you said pretty much grouped all law enforcement officers thru out the country into one large inconsiderate and uncaring group. I was annoyed with what you wrote, because tonight I ran three calls without calling EMS for a transport. I transported them myself because I did not feel it was necessary to bother EMS with just a petty job. At times, it is our policy that we have to call EMS. If this is your opinion that all law enforcement officers are uncaring, inconsiderate, rude and unfeeling towards their fellow emergency personnel, then fine. I also have run into dispatchers that don't seem to care for anyone but themselves, but I have also had dispatchers who have taken very good care of me. I at least make the mention that not all are alike. Not everyone should be grouped into the list that you wrote out. If you do not know the first decent officer, then you certainly have grounds to stand on. But I would have thought that you would know at least one, considering that you were even in our wedding. Thanks alot. I can't believe that you pretty much just called your friend's wife an idiot. Not to mention that I am a better shot than you at the range. HAHA. See if I allow you over to my house again to talk to my cat. My cat is too good for you and you shouldn't even be allowed in the same room with her. Gotta run. Have to get my sleep so I can go to work tomorrow and call EMS for every B.S. problem that I run into.
Caio,
Sarah
It's easy, and perhaps unfair, for me to form the opinion that alot of cops are just damned lazy
I thought that statement covered it, Sarah. I guess I could've been a little more clear about it though. It would be ridiculous for me to say that every law enforcement officer is lazy or uncaring of the workload that some of their decisions place on other agencies. I know that just like any profession, they have their useless lumps who just get a check. But when I call for help...urgent help at that...I expect a response, not some asshole Sergeant questioning our request. Who the hell does he think he is? If one of his officers had a fight on his hands...you bet yer tail that the cavalry would be enroute. Why's it different for EMS?
I used words like They come off as a rather self centered bunch... to try and indicate that it is a perception not necessarily a fact. I sit in a hole with little narrow windows and view the world through a telephone reciever and a radio. It's difficult to remain objective. At some point you just want to bang your head on the concrete and cuss everybody out because you get no cooperation from agencies who are supposed to be kindred in spirit. If you transported a drunk or transient to the hospital and saved EMS a ton of money that would never be collected, then as far as I'm concerned you deserve an award. But we never hear of those instances, that's why I admitted that my perception might be "unfair". I really can't yell and cuss at work. I'm not in a position to effect change in policy. I'm just a bottom rung dude who must eat the plate of shit he's served. So, whattaya do when you get full?
Well, that's really what this site is all about. I ain't proud of alot of what comes out here, but it has to come out or it gets shoved down and compacted and one day...well...let's hope that day never comes. I hope you understand that this is sort of my dark side and, unlike my other site, there is often "emotion" included in my posts here. It's a release. I could write all this stuff down in a journal and keep it to myself, but the possibility that someone may read, and may understand is much more therapudic than writing myself a letter and sticking it in a drawer.
You know I love you guys....both of you. I know you love your job. I know you strive to be the best you can be. So do I. But the simple fact is that we do, either by our own devices or the devices of others have a less than efficient relationship with our law enforcement counterparts. I will say that alot of it is laziness on the LE dispatchers more so than the officers. I never really speak to or deal with LEO's directly. Only with their dispatchers. Perhaps it is they who are the primary source of the breakdown in communication. It's difficult to tell from my lowly vantage point.
Take the example in this post...The dispatcher refused to ask the officer what I needed. Perhaps because she was busy, perhaps because she was pissed, perhaps it was because she knew the officer wouldn't be cooperative anyway, perhaps it was because she didn't give half a crap about the thoroughness of her work....I don't know. Quite frankley I don't really care. At the expense of my job...I'm required to be thorough, I'm required to be courteous, professional and accomodating not only to the citizens I deal with daily but also to the other public safety agencies with whom we work. Why should I not be able to expect the same?
I will give you this: We have much less heartache from PPD than we do ESO or PFD. I don't know if it's because your officers are held to higher standards or if it's just because, geographically, your agency covers only a small fracion of the territory we respond to. The rest is covered by ESO. Given that 9 out of 10 requests from Law Enforcement comes from ESO, you can see where the primary source of stress is. (I gotta interject here that PFD has, by far, the most unprofessional, rude, unhelpful, dispatchers I've ever had the misfortune of dealing with. Since they answer the direct line we use to contact PD, they sort of act as a go between for your agency and mine....and let me tell you they suck. BAD. Everyone in my department feels the same way, without exception. That's about 30 people who have the same impression of that agency. They all can't be wrong. Come to think of it, I probably should've slammed them in this post...maybe that's another post altogether.)
It wasn't my intent to group all cops together. I said "alot" of cops...not "all" though I can see how it reads that way. I understand you see this as an attack on your profession, but that's not what it is. Rather, it is an attack on some of the people IN your profession who lack the ability or desire to see "the big picture". There are those in MY profession who are just as guilty. For example, our management has boxes of "Medical Miranda" cards. These cards have a very condensed version of the basic, minimal information that EMS needs from Law Enforcement on every request for service in order to properly code and prioritize that call. They are designed to be carried by LEO's and when an ambulance is needed, they obtain the info on the card (basic stuff like, conscious? breathing OK? alert? basic complaint?) and relay it to their dispatch. With just that little bit of info, we can get an ambulance rolling with the proper priority assigned. More info is always better but this is the bare minimum. But they sit in boxes, never to be issued because (and I quote) "They won't use them anyway, it'll be a waste of time." That pisses me off! It's a possible solution to a major problem and they sit on them because they THINK they won't be used. That's unacceptable. It's easy for management to take this attitude because they don't dispatch anymore. They work 8-5 Mon-Fri and never or seldom pick up a 9-1-1 line or talk on a radio.
Alot of the steam that gets blown off here is just that...steam. But there is substance to this post....and I realize that the fault falls on both sides of the radio. I hope this clears up what I was trying to say. I hope you understand that: "Thanks alot. I can't believe that you pretty much just called your friend's wife an idiot......well, that just ain't so. Idiots abound. They're everywhere. They sit behind dispatch consoles, they sit in Police cars, they sit in ambulances, they sit in cushy middle and upper level management chairs...they sit amongst the rest of us and draw the same pay......but I never said you were one.
Enjoy your vacation.
On a related/unrelated note, out here in California, we have an agency with a VERY unique police/fire situation. Sunnyvale DPS (Department of Public Safety). Sunnyvale is a pretty big city, about 60 miles south of San Fran-freako. Each police officer is also a fireman/medic. They rotate through both jobs. I heard they do two year rotations but I also heard much shorter and "as needed" options exsist. You have to have a B.A. to join the dept. and apparently they make a LOT of money. I find this agency, which is kinda nearby to mine, facinating. Bet, their dispatchers don't have any of the afore-mentioned problems. Sorry to ramble but I wanted to share :)
J,
Solution is quite an easy one. You have heard the saying: 'Smile and the world smiles with you.' I know it sounds very gay..but it has merit especially in the type of job your in. Faceless conversation and without knowing how to 'visually read' the other person.
Anyone can learn to get what they need if it is presented in a way that the recipient finds (oddly nice, receptive and genuine). To many times I have heard dispatchers in EMS, Fire and the S.O. realm speak in monotalk to others in their own field both over the phone and the radio. Example of how to shy away from the monotalk.
EMS Disp: Rescue, this is (your name)
S.O: Yeah, We need you guys to go to Pace and Palafox."
EMS Disp: ((Female voice? ask if it is -*make up a name*-, eventhough you have no frickin idea it is. If you get a name response, awesome. You are now on a personal one to one basis. One person with a need and the other with the means to provide that need.
EMS Disp: Sally,(example)do you P,F or A?
S.O: Ambulance (maybe more info, maybe not)
EMS Disp: Ok Sally, can you tell me if the patient is Conscious breathing etc. question after question. ((eventhough you have no idea if they even have a patient, she has been presented information all at once that will require a minimum of 1 response to any of your questions))
You get the idea and know exactly what I'm talking about. It sounds very tree huggy, trust me I know.
Yet If someone presents themself in a manner that makes you feel like the most polite person on earth it will pay off in the long run. Who knows it may rub off on others around you. Lord knows some of them REALLY need it.
The average joe blow must understand that the first tier of saving lives and property starts with a dispatcher. If that person in question talks to a dispatcher who sounds like their best buddy, then let the results fly.
Hell, who knows if all the dispatch agencies start working as a team then the deputies can focus more on what they do best...shootin' up the public and askin' questions later (I am kidding...kinda...no I'm kidding)
Ok I'm done sounding like a liberal.
J...all you said is very true. Many dispatchers feel the same way about other agencies regardless of what end they are on and who they are talking to.
I'm sorry you always recieve such backlash for your opinions. I think some people take things too personally. You voice your opinions well. I don't always agree with you, but its your opinion, not mine.
I have never been there, but I have heard that Mobile has a combined center and it is hell on earth. Gas Co, Water, Fire, Police, Ems, and every other person we talk to on a regular basis all combined in one room. They say it is the worst thing that ever happend to them.
But, closer to home, working as a fire dispatcher in a police department there is a ton of amniocity. I get reemed several times on a shift for sending fire or ems to a call that pd doesn't think is justifiable. I have started asking them where they got their EMT license or fire standards(I don't utilize them, but I actually have both). I have sat in your dispatch center and heard people criticize my other places of employment as well. But we all have different SOP's and protocols.
I tend to think I do things a little different than the rest because I have an understanding of how the others work. But, even now, partly because of so many newbies and partly for lack of understanding, people at your agency are quite rude to me when requesting something.
I am glad you finally got the opportunity to fly because you now have a better understanding of us and our operations. Several people at pd have told me they would love to come and sit a shift with ya'll so that they can have a better understanding of operations. one, a supervisor, said she had been asking for years for them to be able to do that. I mentioned that over at your building once or twice and I guess it fell on deaf ears. THAT is what I think the true problem is here.
Dispatchers, Officers, and Miscellaneous Road Crew Members for the most part seem willing and wanting to learn what they can about others jobs. But, I believe management on different levels tend to throw a stumbling block into this. Sometimes I think cohesiveness among all agencies is like asking for world peace.
Look at Ivan and Katrina. All those higher ups in the EOC all together and supposed to be on the same page. But that most definately was not the case. I know my husband was running fire calls way after EMS was no longer able to run. One incident he was working a cardiac arrest thinking EMS was responding. They had no medics on scene and had to call and find a doctor to allow them to stop. All this because of upper management.
Thats my opinion, well, some of it. All us peons should be asked what we think cause the worl would turn a little better, don't ya think? haha...
Have a great week! Maybe I'll see ya'll sometime. I miss you guys. Hug D for me!
Holy guacamole!!! I just came across your blog and within 3 minutes I was cracking up! I have been a dispatcher for almost 11 years and I, too, have encountered some of the same stupid idiots on 911 who claim they didn't call, etc. WTF!? Think I dial you at random, jerkface? LOL!
Anyway, just wanted to say hi. Hope you post again soon so I can laugh along with everyone else who reads! =)
I gotta say the only time I saw the cops, fire and EMS all unite as a brotherhood in my town, they were all facing layoffs from the city administration idiots who lost control of the budget and didn't want to bother paying the service personnel. Other than that, they tend to trash talk each other all the time, push calls off on each other, and generally try to be uncooperative in all directions. So no, I don't think you are the only ones on the 'receiving' end in EMS.
can you update your blog? I am anxiously awaiting more wisdom, but this last post is ancient!!!!
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